Discussion:
hovercraft for agricultural use
(too old to reply)
shaki
2006-10-21 19:22:45 UTC
Permalink
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After that,
the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the rice
field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about 1-2 ft
high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed.
In one hectare you talk about 4 metric tons easily.
Transport by cars and/or boats over the rice fields is undoable, so I
thought, maybe a hovercraft?
What is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?

Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
Hoverjunky
2006-10-22 15:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Check out www.kawahovercraft.com

They can customize a hovercraft for just about anything.

Hoverjunky
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After that,
the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the rice
field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about 1-2 ft
high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed.
In one hectare you talk about 4 metric tons easily.
Transport by cars and/or boats over the rice fields is undoable, so I
thought, maybe a hovercraft?
What is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
shaki
2006-10-22 21:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hoverjunky
www.kawahovercraft.com
Maybe, if you don't care about the return on investment :)
Thanks anyway,

shaki
Pat
2006-10-26 13:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by shaki
Post by Hoverjunky
www.kawahovercraft.com
Maybe, if you don't care about the return on investment :)
Thanks anyway,
shaki
With only a little googleing I found this

http://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/uccerice/PRODUCT/rpic11.htm

In the US combines start in Texas and work North to Canada for the
Wheat harvest. This maximizes the use of a combine over several months.
Verses just using one locally.

Things to consider are draining the field for harvest then a full size
combine can be brought in harvest. This draining would good for
tillage work and possible disease and pest control. As the crop
production is increased various crop diseases become more harmful.

Perhaps a small thrashing machine can be floated in to each field when
it harvested. The workers carry back stalks or thrash as they go out
and get cuttings. They work the thrash in as they carry the cuttings
back. This would be if the field could not be drained or even drained.
And would be a straddle until full mechanization can be monetized

The question of displaced workers vs increased production is something
to consider...

What part of the world are you looking at?

--Pat
Ken Roberts
2006-10-26 15:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by shaki
Post by Hoverjunky
www.kawahovercraft.com
Maybe, if you don't care about the return on investment :)
Thanks anyway,
shaki
With only a little googleing I found this
http://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/uccerice/PRODUCT/rpic11.htm
In the US combines start in Texas and work North to Canada for the
Wheat harvest. This maximizes the use of a combine over several months.
Verses just using one locally.
Things to consider are draining the field for harvest then a full size
combine can be brought in harvest. This draining would good for
tillage work and possible disease and pest control. As the crop
production is increased various crop diseases become more harmful.
Perhaps a small thrashing machine can be floated in to each field when
it harvested. The workers carry back stalks or thrash as they go out
and get cuttings. They work the thrash in as they carry the cuttings
back. This would be if the field could not be drained or even drained.
And would be a straddle until full mechanization can be monetized
The question of displaced workers vs increased production is something
to consider...
What part of the world are you looking at?
--Pat
What about leave the field flooded, then the hovercraft has a
sickle-bar on it and cuts the stalks right on the water line?

If you used a compartmented skirt, it would tolerate unbalanced loads
better and you could control spray by having the skirt actually
touching/under the water. You could even make an automatic balancing
system where each compartment is pressurized or depressurized as
needed, within limits. The operator would have to make sure the
platform is mostly balanced by distributing the cargo.

All you care about is getting the job done, you don't want speed the
way us recreational guys do. Most of the time you'd be going at a walk
or slower probably. So really this is a raft that can go over land to
reach the truck.
shaki
2006-10-27 11:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by Hoverjunky
www.kawahovercraft.com
Maybe, if you don't care about the return on investment :) Thanks
anyway,
shaki
With only a little googleing I found this
http://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/uccerice/PRODUCT/rpic11.htm
In the US combines start in Texas and work North to Canada for the
Wheat harvest. This maximizes the use of a combine over several months.
Verses just using one locally.
Things to consider are draining the field for harvest then a full size
combine can be brought in harvest. This draining would good for tillage
work and possible disease and pest control. As the crop production is
increased various crop diseases become more harmful.
Perhaps a small thrashing machine can be floated in to each field when
it harvested. The workers carry back stalks or thrash as they go out
and get cuttings. They work the thrash in as they carry the cuttings
back. This would be if the field could not be drained or even drained.
And would be a straddle until full mechanization can be monetized
The question of displaced workers vs increased production is something
to consider...
What part of the world are you looking at?
--Pat
What about leave the field flooded, then the hovercraft has a sickle-bar
on it and cuts the stalks right on the water line?
In order to reduce drying costs and also to reduce the harvest losses
(deterioration of cut rice coming in contact with the water or mud) the
fields are preferably drained one or two weeks before harvest.
But, if you make the hovercraft a mechanical harvester, cutting the rice
and putting it on board, that would be a different story. But mechanical
harvesting has not yet even reached in this part of the world :)

shaki
If you used a compartmented skirt, it would tolerate unbalanced loads
better and you could control spray by having the skirt actually
touching/under the water. You could even make an automatic balancing
system where each compartment is pressurized or depressurized as needed,
within limits. The operator would have to make sure the platform is
mostly balanced by distributing the cargo.
All you care about is getting the job done, you don't want speed the way
us recreational guys do. Most of the time you'd be going at a walk or
slower probably. So really this is a raft that can go over land to reach
the truck.
shaki
2006-10-27 11:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by Hoverjunky
www.kawahovercraft.com
Maybe, if you don't care about the return on investment :) Thanks
anyway,
shaki
With only a little googleing I found this
I hope you used the Google search engine? Otherwise Google Inc. might sue
you for using that verb :)
Post by Pat
http://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/uccerice/PRODUCT/rpic11.htm
In the US combines start in Texas and work North to Canada for the
Wheat harvest. This maximizes the use of a combine over several months.
Verses just using one locally.
Good idea, only, here in the Philippines things aren't so structured (yet).
Post by Pat
Things to consider are draining the field for harvest
Is normally done, although mother nature lets nobody dictate her when to
rain or not. There's a 'wet season' where per definition using a combine
would be useless. In the dry season ok, but the paddys are so small and
disorganised that that machine wouldn't be able to work straight on, I'm
afraid.
Post by Pat
then a full size
combine can be brought in harvest. This draining would good for tillage
work and possible disease and pest control.
There's all kinds of reasons to put less water in the rice field. The only
two good reasons for flooding rice fields seem to be weed control and
unavoidable flooding. But that aside... :)
Post by Pat
As the crop production is
increased various crop diseases become more harmful.
Perhaps a small thrashing machine can be floated in to each field when it
harvested. The workers carry back stalks or thrash as they go out and get
cuttings.
I prefer to keep the stalks at the location where the rice is threshed,
then mix it with chicken (or other dung), possibly trichoderma and green
manure, and convert it to compost for a next cropping. This way replacing
export of money to industries abroad by spending the money locally in the
(already poor) community by buying the chicken dung and hiring the labour.
Post by Pat
They work the thrash in as they carry the cuttings back. This
would be if the field could not be drained or even drained.
And would be a straddle until full mechanization can be monetized
The question of displaced workers vs increased production is something to
consider...
What part of the world are you looking at?
I'm talking about the Philippines.

shaki
Post by Pat
--Pat
r***@pdq.net
2006-10-22 18:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After that,
the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the rice
field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about 1-2 ft
high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed.
In one hectare you talk about 4 metric tons easily.
Transport by cars and/or boats over the rice fields is undoable, so I
thought, maybe a hovercraft?
What is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
I know that this has been done before. Rice farmers have used
small hovercraft for moving light loads around.
Commercially available hovercraft that can handle 1 ton or more
are very expensive, partly because they are intended to operate on big
waters with waves, etc.
If a hovercraft were designed from the start as a rice mover it
could be done cheaply, especially if it were moved around with cables.
This is an old idea. I know that some folks have relevant
experience; I really do not.
shaki
2006-10-22 21:22:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After
that, the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the
rice field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about
1-2 ft high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In one
hectare you talk about 4 metric tons easily. Transport by cars and/or
boats over the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a
hovercraft?
What is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
I know that this has been done before. Rice farmers have used
small hovercraft for moving light loads around.
Commercially available hovercraft that can handle 1 ton or more
are very expensive, partly because they are intended to operate on big
waters with waves, etc.
If a hovercraft were designed from the start as a rice mover it
could be done cheaply, especially if it were moved around with cables.
This is an old idea. I know that some folks have relevant
experience; I really do not.
Exactly, I was thinking along that kind of lines. Just a flat plate with a
rubber flap around it and a big fan in the middle, driven by a (small?)
diesel engine.
Cables... nice idea...
No other pointers like where to look for such design?
Thanks,
shaki
Buy_Sell
2006-10-22 21:43:35 UTC
Permalink
Shaki, you might want to see what Barry Palmer from Sevtec has to say
about this.
Barry has some of the most fuel efficient hovercraft designs available.


Also, here is a website that is using airboats to do this job.
I know that it will not help with your particular situation but it
might give you some ideas.
http://www.agr.gov.sk.ca/DOCS/crops/northern_Agriculture/Hvwrc.asp

------------------
Post by shaki
Post by r***@pdq.net
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After
that, the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the
rice field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about
1-2 ft high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In one
hectare you talk about 4 metric tons easily. Transport by cars and/or
boats over the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a
hovercraft?
What is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
I know that this has been done before. Rice farmers have used
small hovercraft for moving light loads around.
Commercially available hovercraft that can handle 1 ton or more
are very expensive, partly because they are intended to operate on big
waters with waves, etc.
If a hovercraft were designed from the start as a rice mover it
could be done cheaply, especially if it were moved around with cables.
This is an old idea. I know that some folks have relevant
experience; I really do not.
Exactly, I was thinking along that kind of lines. Just a flat plate with a
rubber flap around it and a big fan in the middle, driven by a (small?)
diesel engine.
Cables... nice idea...
No other pointers like where to look for such design?
Thanks,
shaki
Barry Palmer
2006-10-22 22:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buy_Sell
Shaki, you might want to see what Barry Palmer from Sevtec has to say
about this.
Barry has some of the most fuel efficient hovercraft designs available.
Also, here is a website that is using airboats to do this job.
I know that it will not help with your particular situation but it
might give you some ideas.
http://www.agr.gov.sk.ca/DOCS/crops/northern_Agriculture/Hvwrc.asp
------------------
Post by shaki
Post by r***@pdq.net
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After
that, the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the
rice field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about
1-2 ft high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In one
hectare you talk about 4 metric tons easily. Transport by cars and/or
boats over the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a
hovercraft?
What is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
I know that this has been done before. Rice farmers have used
small hovercraft for moving light loads around.
Commercially available hovercraft that can handle 1 ton or more
are very expensive, partly because they are intended to operate on big
waters with waves, etc.
If a hovercraft were designed from the start as a rice mover it
could be done cheaply, especially if it were moved around with cables.
This is an old idea. I know that some folks have relevant
experience; I really do not.
Exactly, I was thinking along that kind of lines. Just a flat plate with a
rubber flap around it and a big fan in the middle, driven by a (small?)
diesel engine.
Cables... nice idea...
No other pointers like where to look for such design?
Thanks,
shaki
I have been approached by rice farmers about rice farming applications
but none have wanted to add money to such a program for a test craft.

The wild rice harvesting could possibly be improved by use of an air
cushion as the plant is not forced as deeply and roughly under water as
it would be in the case of an airboat. I have operated in salt marshes
where the stripping of seeds on the craft bow was so violent as to
represent a danger to eyesight, as the seeds would come back in
stinging salvos.

I would suggest a wider craft, with two thrust motors to control field
coverage more accurately, and, is there some rule that requires the
harvesting tray to be only 3 meters wide?

As far as paddy harvesting, fertilizing, or pesticide distribution
goes, such areas as California have large levees with "rollovers",
which could accommodate the air cushion vehicle with air propulsion.
Steep slope harvesting is another problem, and it is unlikely that the
air cushion could be used at right angles to the levees, unless some
sort of ground contact low speed device is employed to assist the craft
over levees.

Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
Robert Ball
2006-10-23 04:56:41 UTC
Permalink
I live in a California rice growing area and see very tall skinny tires
on the equipment which allows them can move over dry and wet areas with
truck size loads (tons). The big harvesting machines even have tracks
under the forward area to distribute the weight and provide traction,
with tires under the rear portion to provide steering without the damage
that would be caused by skid steering on the tracks.

No special training is needed for equipment operators for wheeled
vehicles as would be required for hovercraft, they can travel along the
roads from one site to another without side slip, no high wind from
thrusters to strip the crop from the adjacent field, and most of all,
they have brakes, and can negotiate the dikes between fields to cross
over steep banks or travel along the top of them to where they transfer
the rice to road trucks.
Post by Barry Palmer
Post by Buy_Sell
Shaki, you might want to see what Barry Palmer from Sevtec has to say
about this.
Barry has some of the most fuel efficient hovercraft designs available.
Also, here is a website that is using airboats to do this job.
I know that it will not help with your particular situation but it
might give you some ideas.
http://www.agr.gov.sk.ca/DOCS/crops/northern_Agriculture/Hvwrc.asp
------------------
Post by shaki
Post by r***@pdq.net
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After
that, the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the
rice field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about
1-2 ft high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In one
hectare you talk about 4 metric tons easily. Transport by cars and/or
boats over the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a
hovercraft?
What is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
I know that this has been done before. Rice farmers have used
small hovercraft for moving light loads around.
Commercially available hovercraft that can handle 1 ton or more
are very expensive, partly because they are intended to operate on big
waters with waves, etc.
If a hovercraft were designed from the start as a rice mover it
could be done cheaply, especially if it were moved around with cables.
This is an old idea. I know that some folks have relevant
experience; I really do not.
Exactly, I was thinking along that kind of lines. Just a flat plate with a
rubber flap around it and a big fan in the middle, driven by a (small?)
diesel engine.
Cables... nice idea...
No other pointers like where to look for such design?
Thanks,
shaki
I have been approached by rice farmers about rice farming applications
but none have wanted to add money to such a program for a test craft.
The wild rice harvesting could possibly be improved by use of an air
cushion as the plant is not forced as deeply and roughly under water as
it would be in the case of an airboat. I have operated in salt marshes
where the stripping of seeds on the craft bow was so violent as to
represent a danger to eyesight, as the seeds would come back in
stinging salvos.
I would suggest a wider craft, with two thrust motors to control field
coverage more accurately, and, is there some rule that requires the
harvesting tray to be only 3 meters wide?
As far as paddy harvesting, fertilizing, or pesticide distribution
goes, such areas as California have large levees with "rollovers",
which could accommodate the air cushion vehicle with air propulsion.
Steep slope harvesting is another problem, and it is unlikely that the
air cushion could be used at right angles to the levees, unless some
sort of ground contact low speed device is employed to assist the craft
over levees.
Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
shaki
2006-10-23 08:36:21 UTC
Permalink
I live in a California rice growing area and see very tall skinny tires on
the equipment which allows them can move over dry and wet areas with truck
size loads (tons).
Hello Robert,

with 'very tall', you mean a big diameter, or a big axial length?

Thanks,
shaki
Robert Ball
2006-10-24 00:50:49 UTC
Permalink
mostly big diameter but a few of them are smaller diameter but very
wide, used in place of tracks to provide flotation.
Post by shaki
I live in a California rice growing area and see very tall skinny tires on
the equipment which allows them can move over dry and wet areas with truck
size loads (tons).
Hello Robert,
with 'very tall', you mean a big diameter, or a big axial length?
Thanks,
shaki
shaki
2006-10-23 11:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After that,
the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the rice
field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about 1-2 ft
high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In one hectare
I found the following web site, but it doesn't make me too happy.
Apparently one needs a 200 hp engine to carry a payload of 1 ton!

http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm

shaki
Post by shaki
you talk about 4 metric tons
easily. Transport by cars and/or boats over
Post by shaki
the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a hovercraft? What is
your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
Hover-buff
2006-10-23 18:01:20 UTC
Permalink
10 years ago we got 1.5 metric tons to skim the water at 35 knots with
200 hp. Pending the exact application, only limited by the heavy trafic
on the rhine. With proper centrifugal fans and a ballanced drivetrain
it takle about 40 - 50 kW to lift a barge for the payload, the
propulsion pends on which type your looking for. I gues a form of
paddly like wheel should be ok. In this sorts of application your
looking for the best value for money which can be repaired locally.

Mind you we once had a 300 hp state of the art MAN diesel engine
serviced on a beach in indonesia, and they did a splendid job.

Joost
shaki
2006-10-24 07:26:11 UTC
Permalink
10 years ago we got 1.5 metric tons to skim the water at 35 knots with 200
hp. Pending the exact application, only limited by the heavy trafic on the
rhine. With proper centrifugal fans and a ballanced drivetrain it takle
about 40 - 50 kW to lift a barge for the payload, the propulsion pends on
which type your looking for. I gues a form of paddly like wheel
What do u mean by 'paddly like wheel'?
Een wiel met peddels?
should be
ok. In this sorts of application your looking for the best value for money
which can be repaired locally.
Mind you we once had a 300 hp state of the art MAN diesel engine
serviced on a beach in indonesia, and they did a splendid job.
Joost
'Rhine'? 'Joost'? '@concepts.nl'?
Dat MOET uit Nederland komen :)

Shaki
Buy_Sell
2006-10-23 19:00:44 UTC
Permalink
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying
the crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.

Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice
field with as little effort as possible.

Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with
much larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to
something manageable by one person and make several trips along a
mapped out trail. The carts would provide minimal damage to the soil
and no risk of petroleum contamination. There are several of these
designs around but custom building a cart for a particular environment
would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf

-----------------
Post by shaki
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After that,
the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the rice
field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about 1-2 ft
high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In one hectare
I found the following web site, but it doesn't make me too happy.
Apparently one needs a 200 hp engine to carry a payload of 1 ton!
http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm
shaki
Post by shaki
you talk about 4 metric tons
easily. Transport by cars and/or boats over
Post by shaki
the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a hovercraft? What is
your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
Buy_Sell
2006-10-23 19:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Now, if you really wanted it easy and had a good solid pathway and a
long ways to travel, you could use an industrial tricycle like this:
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/hamodel.htm

-----------------------
Post by Buy_Sell
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying
the crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.
Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice
field with as little effort as possible.
Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with
much larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to
something manageable by one person and make several trips along a
mapped out trail. The carts would provide minimal damage to the soil
and no risk of petroleum contamination. There are several of these
designs around but custom building a cart for a particular environment
would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf
-----------------
Post by shaki
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After that,
the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the rice
field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about 1-2 ft
high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In one hectare
I found the following web site, but it doesn't make me too happy.
Apparently one needs a 200 hp engine to carry a payload of 1 ton!
http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm
shaki
Post by shaki
you talk about 4 metric tons
easily. Transport by cars and/or boats over
Post by shaki
the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a hovercraft? What is
your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
Ken Roberts
2006-10-23 20:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buy_Sell
Now, if you really wanted it easy and had a good solid pathway and a
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/hamodel.htm
Are you a recumbent nut?
Buy_Sell
2006-10-24 00:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ken, if I ever get a chance to try out one of these, I'll let you
know if I'm nuts about them or not. I did find it interesting that
someone is trying to market these and they look like they could be
useful in certain situations.

----------------------------
Post by Ken Roberts
Post by Buy_Sell
Now, if you really wanted it easy and had a good solid pathway and a
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/hamodel.htm
Are you a recumbent nut?
Barry Palmer
2006-10-23 20:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buy_Sell
Now, if you really wanted it easy and had a good solid pathway and a
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/hamodel.htm
-----------------------
Post by Buy_Sell
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying
the crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.
Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice
field with as little effort as possible.
Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with
much larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to
something manageable by one person and make several trips along a
mapped out trail. The carts would provide minimal damage to the soil
and no risk of petroleum contamination. There are several of these
designs around but custom building a cart for a particular environment
would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf
-----------------
Post by shaki
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After that,
the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the rice
field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about 1-2 ft
high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In one hectare
I found the following web site, but it doesn't make me too happy.
Apparently one needs a 200 hp engine to carry a payload of 1 ton!
http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm
shaki
Post by shaki
you talk about 4 metric tons
easily. Transport by cars and/or boats over
Post by shaki
the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a hovercraft? What is
your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
We are talking about soil which has a problem with bearing load. The
large diameter narrow wheels are used to keep crop destruction down by
minimizing the surface area needed to haul a load. An air cushion just
might handle such a load, and indeed, a system designed for low speeds
could work.

Mud requires lots of force to traverse with a wheel, not available from
humans, but power should be minimal due to the low speed. Churning up
the mud and spoiling the crop is still a problem.

The Sevtec Explorer that went to Alaska handled both lift and
propulsion on 55 maximum hp, 22hp for lift. All up weight was 2500lb
or so. If designed for an agricultural, rather than vehicular use,
such a device could easily handle an all up weight of the order of 300
lb per horsepower, (7hp per metric ton) using low bearing pressure
(than normally used on an air cushion) , that might not interfere with
the crop at all. Control would be via a pair of independently
throttled thrusters, and possibly a "cookie or pizza cutter" assembly
bearing on the ground for greater accuracy for such as fertilizing and
pesticide application, and minimization of ground disturbance.

Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
RDJ
2006-10-23 22:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buy_Sell
and no risk of petroleum contamination. There are several of these
designs around but custom building a cart for a particular environment
would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf
Don't forget the hovercraft load mover --
http://www.vintageprojects.com/go-kart/hovercraft-plans.html
Dave Schneider
2006-10-24 13:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Although the plans for that are pretty crude, I like the idea of a
hovercraft "wheel" barrow. Keep it simple. I think everyone is thinking
too big. You don't really need to move 1 ton in a single load do you!?
All you really need is something that could move the equivalent of several
people (maybe a dozen people) effortlessly in a single load. A platform
like the foam UH designs would be very inexpensive to build w/o thrust.
push or pull it around with ropes. Actually ... it would make for a pretty
inexpensive experiment to test the concept.

On a drained field, how tall are the clumps of old rice plants? That could
be a problem.
Post by RDJ
Post by Buy_Sell
and no risk of petroleum contamination. There are several of these
designs around but custom building a cart for a particular environment
would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf
Don't forget the hovercraft load mover --
http://www.vintageprojects.com/go-kart/hovercraft-plans.html
shaki
2006-10-24 23:05:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Schneider
Although the plans for that are pretty crude, I like the idea of a
hovercraft "wheel" barrow. Keep it simple. I think everyone is
thinking too big. You don't really need to move 1 ton in a single load do
you!? All you really need is something that could move the equivalent of
several people (maybe a dozen people) effortlessly in a single load.
Ok.
Post by Dave Schneider
A
platform like the foam UH
'foam UH'? I don't know what that is.
Post by Dave Schneider
designs would be very inexpensive to build w/o
thrust. push or pull it around with ropes. Actually ... it would make for
a pretty inexpensive experiment to test the concept.
On a drained field, how tall are the clumps of old rice plants? That
could be a problem.
Yes, that was one of my concerns. Normally the clumps are cut of at a
height of 1 ft or so. But anyway I would like to change that custom into
something like 'as short as possible', in order to get more compost out of
the rice straw.

shaki
Dave Schneider
2006-10-25 00:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by shaki
Post by Dave Schneider
Although the plans for that are pretty crude, I like the idea of a
hovercraft "wheel" barrow. Keep it simple. I think everyone is
thinking too big. You don't really need to move 1 ton in a single load do
you!? All you really need is something that could move the equivalent of
several people (maybe a dozen people) effortlessly in a single load.
Ok.
Post by Dave Schneider
A
platform like the foam UH
'foam UH'? I don't know what that is.
Post by Dave Schneider
designs would be very inexpensive to build w/o
thrust. push or pull it around with ropes. Actually ... it would make for
a pretty inexpensive experiment to test the concept.
On a drained field, how tall are the clumps of old rice plants? That
could be a problem.
Yes, that was one of my concerns. Normally the clumps are cut of at a
height of 1 ft or so. But anyway I would like to change that custom into
something like 'as short as possible', in order to get more compost out of
the rice straw.
shaki
? UH. www.hovercraft.com They don't have any plans for it, but the
foam construction of their craft is pretty simple, especially in your
case if you don't have any thrust. Basically you have around 4- 6" of
laminated polystyrene foam with with a 1/8" plywood deck. There would
be a bag skirt around the perimeter with only a lift engine. The beauty
is it's cheap, and really low to the ground.

If you interested in that, I'm sure the group could come up with a
square hovercraft design to meet your needs. However, you'd have to
build it.

1 ft stubble would make it impassable for the hovercraft we are talking
about. The specs for UH craft say 8" of clearance, but if you had a
field of 8" stubble, it wouldn't work. The smoother the better. I was
thinking that you'd only operate the hovercraft when the field was
flooded. Relatively smooth mud would be ok too. Just not the stubble
you are talking about. If the stubble is dry and hard, it can also rip
the skirt.
shaki
2006-10-25 12:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Schneider
Post by shaki
Post by Dave Schneider
Although the plans for that are pretty crude, I like the idea of a
hovercraft "wheel" barrow. Keep it simple. I think everyone is
thinking too big. You don't really need to move 1 ton in a single load
do you!? All you really need is something that could move the equivalent
of several people (maybe a dozen people) effortlessly in a single load.
Ok.
Post by Dave Schneider
A
platform like the foam UH
'foam UH'? I don't know what that is.
Post by Dave Schneider
designs would be very inexpensive to build w/o thrust. push or pull it
around with ropes. Actually ... it would make for a pretty inexpensive
experiment to test the concept.
On a drained field, how tall are the clumps of old rice plants? That
could be a problem.
Yes, that was one of my concerns. Normally the clumps are cut of at a
height of 1 ft or so. But anyway I would like to change that custom into
something like 'as short as possible', in order to get more compost out
of the rice straw.
shaki
? UH. www.hovercraft.com They don't have any plans for it, but the
foam construction of their craft is pretty simple, especially in your case
if you don't have any thrust. Basically you have around 4- 6" of
laminated polystyrene foam with with a 1/8" plywood deck. There would be
a bag skirt around the perimeter with only a lift engine. The beauty is
it's cheap, and really low to the ground.
If you interested in that, I'm sure the group could come up with a square
hovercraft design to meet your needs. However, you'd have to build it.
1 ft stubble would make it impassable for the hovercraft we are talking
about. The specs for UH craft say 8" of clearance, but if you had a
field of 8" stubble, it wouldn't work. The smoother the better. I was
thinking that you'd only operate the hovercraft when the field was
flooded. Relatively smooth mud would be ok too. Just not the stubble
you are talking about. If the stubble is dry and hard, it can also rip
the skirt.
Yes, that would also be one my main concerns indeed.
So, to make it work, how high would be still ok for the stubble, and what
material should the skirt be?

shaki
Dave Schneider
2006-10-25 15:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Most of us use vinyl coated fabric but we are typically on water. For
your application, I'd bite the bullet and get hypalon (sp?) It's something
like 4X expensive, but I don't think the vinyl would hold up to the stubble
(but you could try the vinyl). Is the stubble like dry grass, or is it
like tree sticks?

Ideally you want a perfect seal between the skirt and the surface. The
skirt can flex some but not a lot. For example hovercraft are horrible on
grass ... especially long grass. The air leakage is too much. Do you have
a picture of what a drained field looks like? Don't post it in this group
though! This isn't a binary posting group. My guess is that the stubble
is closely spaced and abrupt so the skirt wouldn't have a chance to seal the
gap between the stubble. I'm talking about bag skirts. Finger skirts are a
lot better at that, but that drastically complicates the skirt and the hull
construction.

I don't know about this idea. Those that know hovercraft, can you imagine
operating a hovercraft on a mucky mud flat!?!?! Spray from a hovercraft
can be bad ... can you image what it would be like having mud spray? Only
if it could be operated while clear of the spray!
Post by shaki
Post by Dave Schneider
Post by shaki
Post by Dave Schneider
Although the plans for that are pretty crude, I like the idea of a
hovercraft "wheel" barrow. Keep it simple. I think everyone is
thinking too big. You don't really need to move 1 ton in a single load
do you!? All you really need is something that could move the equivalent
of several people (maybe a dozen people) effortlessly in a single load.
Ok.
Post by Dave Schneider
A
platform like the foam UH
'foam UH'? I don't know what that is.
Post by Dave Schneider
designs would be very inexpensive to build w/o thrust. push or pull it
around with ropes. Actually ... it would make for a pretty inexpensive
experiment to test the concept.
On a drained field, how tall are the clumps of old rice plants? That
could be a problem.
Yes, that was one of my concerns. Normally the clumps are cut of at a
height of 1 ft or so. But anyway I would like to change that custom into
something like 'as short as possible', in order to get more compost out
of the rice straw.
shaki
? UH. www.hovercraft.com They don't have any plans for it, but the
foam construction of their craft is pretty simple, especially in your case
if you don't have any thrust. Basically you have around 4- 6" of
laminated polystyrene foam with with a 1/8" plywood deck. There would be
a bag skirt around the perimeter with only a lift engine. The beauty is
it's cheap, and really low to the ground.
If you interested in that, I'm sure the group could come up with a square
hovercraft design to meet your needs. However, you'd have to build it.
1 ft stubble would make it impassable for the hovercraft we are talking
about. The specs for UH craft say 8" of clearance, but if you had a
field of 8" stubble, it wouldn't work. The smoother the better. I was
thinking that you'd only operate the hovercraft when the field was
flooded. Relatively smooth mud would be ok too. Just not the stubble
you are talking about. If the stubble is dry and hard, it can also rip
the skirt.
Yes, that would also be one my main concerns indeed.
So, to make it work, how high would be still ok for the stubble, and what
material should the skirt be?
shaki
Ken Roberts
2006-10-25 16:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Schneider
Most of us use vinyl coated fabric but we are typically on water. For
your application, I'd bite the bullet and get hypalon (sp?) It's something
like 4X expensive, but I don't think the vinyl would hold up to the stubble
(but you could try the vinyl). Is the stubble like dry grass, or is it
like tree sticks?
Ideally you want a perfect seal between the skirt and the surface. The
skirt can flex some but not a lot. For example hovercraft are horrible on
grass ... especially long grass. The air leakage is too much. Do you have
a picture of what a drained field looks like? Don't post it in this group
though! This isn't a binary posting group. My guess is that the stubble
is closely spaced and abrupt so the skirt wouldn't have a chance to seal the
gap between the stubble. I'm talking about bag skirts. Finger skirts are a
lot better at that, but that drastically complicates the skirt and the hull
construction.
I don't know about this idea. Those that know hovercraft, can you imagine
operating a hovercraft on a mucky mud flat!?!?! Spray from a hovercraft
can be bad ... can you image what it would be like having mud spray? Only
if it could be operated while clear of the spray!
Sealing: What happens with grass is that the grass pushes the skirt
higher, so more air escapes under the skirt. Then more lift power and
airflow is needed in order to compensate for that artificially large
gap. If the stalks of the rice plans are stiff, you will have a
problem. If they lay flat easily, it's easier but you would still
probably need more power than originally estimated.

Mud flats: Been there, done that. If you're running wide open on the
lift and there's a lot of spray generated, it could get ugly but what
comes to my mind is that the skirt tends to stick to the mud, which
tucks the skirt under and makes it harder to go anywhere.

A finger skirt might be a better option here. It would make for a less
stable platform, but less contact with the surface overall, and maybe a
chance that the skirt might both seal better and stick less. It
wouldn't have to be fed by a complicated ducting system the way a real
hovercraft would, you could just centrally feed it by pumping air right
into the cushion area. So the skirt would be more complicated but not
the feeding system.

I also don't know if you'd need that much foam. I'd almost try a 4x8
sheet of 2" foam with glass on each side and some sort of tack strip to
hold the skirt on. No need for plow planes, no need for anything
special but it would have to be tolerant of sitting in water and mud.

That's another thing. If you set it down in mud, you would need to
account for the weight of the mud that sticks to your hull, and be able
to overpower the adhesion between the ground and the craft. Skids
would be pointless because they'd just sink in anyway, right?
Chris P.
2006-10-25 16:24:28 UTC
Permalink
Spray is controllable, with practice.

Also, if the mud is thick enough, it won't spray much at all. If it
does turn out to be a problem, you can always add spray flaps without
too much trouble.

The 8" hoverheight rule is not fixed, it just is the most conveinient
because we can make two skirts out of a 60" wide material. If Shaki
needs a hoverheight higher than 8" to clear some dikes or dividers,
there's no reason not to waste a little material. Of course, you'd
have to size up your hull width accordingly. (Wasting material also
reinforces the argument to go for hypalon or another longer lasting
material)

I do think that this idea will only work on a flooded field if the
"stumps" are as high as has been described. If Shaki can convince them
to cut the stumps flush, it might work on a drained field.

Chris
Post by Dave Schneider
I don't know about this idea. Those that know hovercraft, can you imagine
operating a hovercraft on a mucky mud flat!?!?! Spray from a hovercraft
can be bad ... can you image what it would be like having mud spray? Only
if it could be operated while clear of the spray!
shaki
2006-10-26 09:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Schneider
Most of us use vinyl coated fabric but we are typically on water. For
your application, I'd bite the bullet and get hypalon (sp?) It's
something like 4X expensive, but I don't think the vinyl would hold up to
the stubble (but you could try the vinyl). Is the stubble like dry
grass, or is it like tree sticks?
The stubble is a bit like hay, but has a bit smaller diameter of, say, 4
mm. The rice plants are located at about 10" distance from each other, and
each plant has about 25-30 stalks, depending on all sorts of things.
Post by Dave Schneider
Ideally you want a perfect seal between the skirt and the surface. The
skirt can flex some but not a lot. For example hovercraft are horrible
on grass ... especially long grass. The air leakage is too much. Do you
have a picture of what a drained field looks like?
I don't have one at hand unfortunately. But 8"-12" high stubble as
described above is how it looks like. The soil is (almost) dry in order
for the harvesters to be able to walk in the field, and for the cut rice
not to become muddy when put away on the soil for the bundlers.
I think the very best the 'cutters' can do, is cut to a height of about 1"
minimum.
So, dry field is ideal, and often obtained in the dry season, but in the
rainy season often the field is moist, muddy and sometimes flooded.

shaki
Dave Schneider
2006-10-26 12:56:15 UTC
Permalink
With the exception of a wet season, it sounds like a cart would be best for
the harvest ... which you probably already do. The long stubble sounds
like the long grass problem we have ... too much air leakage. It's hard
to say, but you might be able to get by with 3" stubble ... of course the
shorter the better. As there becomes more aire leakage, your load capacity
will be diminished.

If you want to experiment and get your hands dirty, you could probably build
a simple platform hovercraft w/o thrust pretty cheap ... especially if you
can pick up a used vertical shaft engine somewhere in the 10-15 hp range.
The size of the engine would dictate how big the platform can be. Some of
the building materials we take for granted in the US are kind of hard to
find elsewhere ... the big one being extruded polystyrene foam.
Post by shaki
Post by Dave Schneider
Most of us use vinyl coated fabric but we are typically on water. For
your application, I'd bite the bullet and get hypalon (sp?) It's
something like 4X expensive, but I don't think the vinyl would hold up to
the stubble (but you could try the vinyl). Is the stubble like dry
grass, or is it like tree sticks?
The stubble is a bit like hay, but has a bit smaller diameter of, say, 4
mm. The rice plants are located at about 10" distance from each other, and
each plant has about 25-30 stalks, depending on all sorts of things.
Post by Dave Schneider
Ideally you want a perfect seal between the skirt and the surface. The
skirt can flex some but not a lot. For example hovercraft are horrible
on grass ... especially long grass. The air leakage is too much. Do you
have a picture of what a drained field looks like?
I don't have one at hand unfortunately. But 8"-12" high stubble as
described above is how it looks like. The soil is (almost) dry in order
for the harvesters to be able to walk in the field, and for the cut rice
not to become muddy when put away on the soil for the bundlers.
I think the very best the 'cutters' can do, is cut to a height of about 1"
minimum.
So, dry field is ideal, and often obtained in the dry season, but in the
rainy season often the field is moist, muddy and sometimes flooded.
shaki
shaki
2006-10-27 10:10:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Schneider
With the exception of a wet season, it sounds like a cart would be best
for the harvest ... which you probably already do. The long stubble
sounds like the long grass problem we have ... too much air leakage.
It's hard to say, but you might be able to get by with 3" stubble ... of
course the shorter the better. As there becomes more aire leakage, your
load capacity will be diminished.
If you want to experiment and get your hands dirty, you could probably
build a simple platform hovercraft w/o thrust pretty cheap ... especially
if you can pick up a used vertical shaft engine somewhere in the 10-15 hp
range. The size of the engine would dictate how big the platform can be.
Some of the building materials we take for granted in the US are kind of
hard to find elsewhere ... the big one being extruded polystyrene foam.
Then, how about a skirt that's not flexible at all? You cut the rice at
a max of 1", put a platform with a wooden 'skirt' in the field, switch on
the engine and off you go, until all the rice is gathered and you reach
the place where threshing will be done.

shaki
Dave Schneider
2006-10-27 13:54:43 UTC
Permalink
I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but have you seen a hovercraft in
action before? A hovercraft doesn't "really" hover above the ground like
you would seen in a science fiction movie. Yes the hull does, but the
skirt is pretty much in contact with the surface as an air dam.

I've seen 1 skirtless experimental hovercraft built by the Webers. It does
"hover" about an inch or so above the ground. Any obstruction directly
contats the hull. Because of the lack of an air dam, I also don't think it
would be as efficient in lifting the payload. The weber hovercraft was
about as fragile as tissue paper to keep the weight at a minimum. That's an
exageration, but close to the truth. :-)
Post by shaki
Then, how about a skirt that's not flexible at all? You cut the rice at
a max of 1", put a platform with a wooden 'skirt' in the field, switch on
the engine and off you go, until all the rice is gathered and you reach
the place where threshing will be done.
shaki
Barry Palmer
2006-10-27 16:59:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Schneider
I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but have you seen a hovercraft in
action before? A hovercraft doesn't "really" hover above the ground like
you would seen in a science fiction movie. Yes the hull does, but the
skirt is pretty much in contact with the surface as an air dam.
I've seen 1 skirtless experimental hovercraft built by the Webers. It does
"hover" about an inch or so above the ground. Any obstruction directly
contats the hull. Because of the lack of an air dam, I also don't think it
would be as efficient in lifting the payload. The weber hovercraft was
about as fragile as tissue paper to keep the weight at a minimum. That's an
exageration, but close to the truth. :-)
Post by shaki
Then, how about a skirt that's not flexible at all? You cut the rice at
a max of 1", put a platform with a wooden 'skirt' in the field, switch on
the engine and off you go, until all the rice is gathered and you reach
the place where threshing will be done.
shaki
Could you harvest with the field in water, and then the skirt would
just press the stubble down into the water. The Sevtec videos show
passage through grass with water at the base, much easier than going on
dry ground with stubble. Some sort of hover combine would go through
the field, first, offloading threshed rice to a second hover vehicle,
and leaving the chaff on the field? I dunno, the closest I get to rice
is the minute kind.

Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
shaki
2006-10-28 04:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Schneider
I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but have you seen a hovercraft
in action before? A hovercraft doesn't "really" hover above the ground
like you would seen in a science fiction movie. Yes the hull does, but
the skirt is pretty much in contact with the surface as an air dam.
I've seen 1 skirtless experimental hovercraft built by the Webers. It
does "hover" about an inch or so above the ground. Any obstruction
directly contats the hull. Because of the lack of an air dam, I also
don't think it would be as efficient in lifting the payload. The weber
hovercraft was about as fragile as tissue paper to keep the weight at a
minimum. That's an exageration, but close to the truth. :-)
Post by shaki
Then, how about a skirt that's not flexible at all? You cut the rice
at a max of 1", put a platform with a wooden 'skirt' in the field,
switch on the engine and off you go, until all the rice is gathered
and you reach the place where threshing will be done.
shaki
Could you harvest with the field in water, and then the skirt would just
press the stubble down into the water.
As I said in an earlier post, preferably the water is drained 1-2 weeks
before harvest, for a number of reasons, like maturing the rice,
pre-drying the grains, protecting the grains in case of lodging and
easier access for the cutters (not necessary of course if the 'hovercraft'
would contain a harvester machine, which would make it heavier though).
If one would decide to harvest with a flooded field, then she could ask
the cutters to even cut below the water level and to put the rice
immediately on the hovercraft which would have to follow them, i.e.
have its engine running constantly.
'Hover combine' would relate to the most simple solution possible, as
economics here almost dictate no-hardware-full-labor solutions.

shaki
The Sevtec videos show passage
through grass with water at the base, much easier than going on dry ground
with stubble. Some sort of hover combine would go through the field,
first, offloading threshed rice to a second hover vehicle, and leaving the
chaff on the field? I dunno, the closest I get to rice is the minute
kind.
Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
Pat
2006-10-28 11:49:38 UTC
Permalink
shaki wrote:
...
Post by shaki
'Hover combine' would relate to the most simple solution possible, as
economics here almost dictate no-hardware-full-labor solutions.
shaki
Here are some grain carts for you.

Tracked
http://www.jm-inc.com/new/specifications/grain_cart_1050-22T_spec.asp
Wheeled
http://www.jm-inc.com/new/specifications/grain_cart_1050-22D_spec.asp

At 1075 bushels a load that's a lot of corn!

These huge carts are often fitted with load cells so the crop can
measured at the field. Also they are best with single axles with bigger
wheels. multiple axles with small wheels often fail and are hard to
turn. Also the grain moisture is noted with a portable measurer.

The water weight at harvest can be very high this adds to the volume
too. The corn is graded as #1 when the moisture is 14%. However the
farmer is paid for grade #2 15% anyway. He is docked for shinkage and
drying charges for any moisture readings above that. So the farmer will
test for moisture before the field is harvested. A farmer may plant
different maturity dates to get a good spread for timely harvesting.

A consistent grading system is needed to prevent cheating the farmer
and as he makes a better product he can ask for more money.

One good thing about a hovercraft is one can deduce the weight being
carried by the amount of air pressure used to hover the craft.


So I propose a cart with two wheels and load cells on the axle. But
when the conditions are muddy enough for the wheels to sink the hover
lift fan is started. A hand tractor is used to move said cart. Coupled
with a moisture checker the farmer is ready.

A cheap way would use a sheet of plastic by simply dragging it once the
cuttings were loaded on it.

--Pat
shaki
2006-10-29 02:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
...
Post by shaki
'Hover combine' would relate to the most simple solution possible, as
economics here almost dictate no-hardware-full-labor solutions.
shaki
Here are some grain carts for you.
Tracked
http://www.jm-inc.com/new/specifications/grain_cart_1050-22T_spec.asp
Wheeled
http://www.jm-inc.com/new/specifications/grain_cart_1050-22D_spec.asp
At 1075 bushels a load that's a lot of corn!
Very nice carts, but rice fields can in no way (except that there's soil
with something growing on it) be compared to rice fields which are kept
wet. Even in the dry season the fields will only be drained later on, so
the soil will still be too soft to handle such a cart generally.
Post by Pat
These huge carts are often fitted with load cells so the crop can measured
at the field. Also they are best with single axles with bigger wheels.
multiple axles with small wheels often fail and are hard to turn. Also the
grain moisture is noted with a portable measurer.
The water weight at harvest can be very high this adds to the volume
too. The corn is graded as #1 when the moisture is 14%. However the farmer
is paid for grade #2 15% anyway. He is docked for shinkage and drying
charges for any moisture readings above that. So the farmer will test for
moisture before the field is harvested. A farmer may plant different
maturity dates to get a good spread for timely harvesting.
A consistent grading system is needed to prevent cheating the farmer and
as he makes a better product he can ask for more money.
One good thing about a hovercraft is one can deduce the weight being
carried by the amount of air pressure used to hover the craft.
So I propose a cart with two wheels and load cells on the axle. But when
the conditions are muddy enough for the wheels to sink the hover lift fan
is started. A hand tractor is used to move said cart. Coupled with a
moisture checker the farmer is ready.
A cheap way would use a sheet of plastic by simply dragging it once the
cuttings were loaded on it.
Did you try that? To draw the plastic over the rice stubbles?

shaki
Post by Pat
--Pat
Pat
2006-10-29 13:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by shaki
Post by Pat
A cheap way would use a sheet of plastic by simply dragging it once the
cuttings were loaded on it.
Did you try that? To draw the plastic over the rice stubbles?
shaki
It is a practice done by town dwellers when the leaves fall behind the
house they are dragged to the gutter with plastic sheets say 2 X 3
meters. I have moved great weight with heavy plastic.

Here the rains have came the farmers must wait for the ground to freeze
now. Generally when water stands in the wheel track it is too wet.

Also another cheap way is to use a bicycle. The bags are carried over
the frame and the farmer pushes the bike when he is sinking into the
mud or he pulls the bike when it is sinking. Thus his job is easier
even when water is filling in the wheel track.

What is the opinion of the government agent?

--Pat
shaki
2006-10-29 23:47:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by shaki
Post by Pat
A cheap way would use a sheet of plastic by simply dragging it once
the cuttings were loaded on it.
Did you try that? To draw the plastic over the rice stubbles?
shaki
It is a practice done by town dwellers when the leaves fall behind the
house they are dragged to the gutter with plastic sheets say 2 X 3 meters.
I have moved great weight with heavy plastic.
Through a field with 1 ft (30cm) high rice stubble??
Post by Pat
Here the rains have came the farmers must wait for the ground to freeze
now. Generally when water stands in the wheel track it is too wet.
Also another cheap way is to use a bicycle. The bags are carried over the
frame and the farmer pushes the bike when he is sinking into the mud or he
pulls the bike when it is sinking. Thus his job is easier even when water
is filling in the wheel track.
We'd have to think about it, especially as we don't have bags for carrying
the cut rice stalks.
Post by Pat
What is the opinion of the government agent?
With all due respect: "HA!"

shaki
Post by Pat
--Pat
Pat
2006-10-31 21:17:38 UTC
Permalink
It is all a question of floatation. The plastic lays on the stubble.
As the bundles are placed on it the plastic is pulled ahead to bend
the stubble. The bundles are spread over the plastic to allow the
load to float on the bending stubble. Where the hovercraft floats on a
ocean of air the plastic is floating on a ocean of stubble.

If bundles are used there some losses of grain but bundles are useful
as a measure and handleing when drying.

The bicycle advantage is it makes a single rut where the following
wheel rolls frees in the rut made by the first wheel. The two wheeled
cart makes two ruts.

The government agent should be measuring the crop, determining the
moisture content, and looking at, the losses, the number of grains
left in the field. Not for taxes but for learning the production of
each area. The numbers determine good and bad practices of each
region.

I would guess that an old woman using plastic to move the bundles from
the field to the road and a bicycle on the road to move the bundles to
the thresher would be able to do the work of two farmers using poles.

--Pat
Post by shaki
Post by Pat
Post by shaki
Post by Pat
A cheap way would use a sheet of plastic by simply dragging it once
the cuttings were loaded on it.
Did you try that? To draw the plastic over the rice stubbles?
shaki
It is a practice done by town dwellers when the leaves fall behind the
house they are dragged to the gutter with plastic sheets say 2 X 3 meters.
I have moved great weight with heavy plastic.
Through a field with 1 ft (30cm) high rice stubble??
Post by Pat
Here the rains have came the farmers must wait for the ground to freeze
now. Generally when water stands in the wheel track it is too wet.
Also another cheap way is to use a bicycle. The bags are carried over the
frame and the farmer pushes the bike when he is sinking into the mud or he
pulls the bike when it is sinking. Thus his job is easier even when water
is filling in the wheel track.
We'd have to think about it, especially as we don't have bags for carrying
the cut rice stalks.
Post by Pat
What is the opinion of the government agent?
With all due respect: "HA!"
shaki
Post by Pat
--Pat
Ken Roberts
2006-10-31 21:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
It is all a question of floatation. The plastic lays on the stubble.
As the bundles are placed on it the plastic is pulled ahead to bend
the stubble. The bundles are spread over the plastic to allow the
load to float on the bending stubble. Where the hovercraft floats on a
ocean of air the plastic is floating on a ocean of stubble.
If bundles are used there some losses of grain but bundles are useful
as a measure and handleing when drying.
The bicycle advantage is it makes a single rut where the following
wheel rolls frees in the rut made by the first wheel. The two wheeled
cart makes two ruts.
The government agent should be measuring the crop, determining the
moisture content, and looking at, the losses, the number of grains
left in the field. Not for taxes but for learning the production of
each area. The numbers determine good and bad practices of each
region.
I would guess that an old woman using plastic to move the bundles from
the field to the road and a bicycle on the road to move the bundles to
the thresher would be able to do the work of two farmers using poles.
--Pat
OK, here's some more on that line of thought.

If you have a semirigid but very flexible piece of slippery plastic,
similar to a roll-up toboggan for snow, and put a perimiter on it, say
of something like a pool noodle so that the noodle is enclosed and the
whole works is waterproof at that point and floats even if it's got a
load on it.

The noodle is only a means of keeping all the rice on the sled in dry
conditions. In wet conditions, the rice could be harvested anyway
because it would float, or if there are puddles from recent rain or
whatever, the puddle wouldn't get soaked into the rice that's on the
sled.

Have a rope threaded through the noodles, and have it accessible from
both ends of the sled. Then when you're up on the ground two people
could pick the whole sled up, or one person could pick the whole works
up as a rolled up carrier, and hike the bundle of rice over your back
to wherever the truck is. Two people one on each end to dump the load
into the truck.

If the ground is too soft, you could use snowshoes or similar to walk
the field. I doubt that will help with a submerged field, but it would
certainly help both with flotation of a human and with traction to pull
the sled.

If you can find a source for plastic and some pool noodles, the
materials cost would be something around $10 for a sled. You could
easily make one of them in an evening after you found your materials
sources, and see how well it works before investing more time and
effort.

If that works well, you could have a similar thing with a very small
lift motor on it and a skirt, probably stiffer, that would be dragged
around without power while in the field and hover to make the trip home
easier. Or park it, load it up until it gets too tough to walk it that
far, and then move it to the next spot. The lift motor need not pick
the whole thing up, it only needs to make it easier to drag. That
feature will multiply the cost and complexity by a huge margin though.
shaki
2006-10-28 03:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Schneider
I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but have you seen a hovercraft
in action before?
I'm not pretending to know anything about hovercrafts except for the
concept of some object 'hovering' on an air cushion, so I can't feel
offended.
But point taken, thanks.

shaki
Post by Dave Schneider
A hovercraft doesn't "really" hover above the ground
like you would seen in a science fiction movie. Yes the hull does, but
the skirt is pretty much in contact with the surface as an air dam.
I've seen 1 skirtless experimental hovercraft built by the Webers. It
does "hover" about an inch or so above the ground. Any obstruction
directly contats the hull. Because of the lack of an air dam, I also
don't think it would be as efficient in lifting the payload. The weber
hovercraft was about as fragile as tissue paper to keep the weight at a
minimum. That's an exageration, but close to the truth. :-)
Post by shaki
Then, how about a skirt that's not flexible at all? You cut the rice at
a max of 1", put a platform with a wooden 'skirt' in the field, switch
on the engine and off you go, until all the rice is gathered and you
reach the place where threshing will be done.
shaki
Robert Ball
2006-10-24 01:01:22 UTC
Permalink
One of the problems is scale, I see the crews moving semi-trailer loads
of harvested rice out of the field every 20 minutes or so, all day and
all night. It has been going on for about 4 weeks and they're not
finished in the 23 mile stretch I drive daily from home to office. That
is a lot of tonnage to move, and fuel economy would be important. A
fueled vehicle is not an issue, they plow, plant, and harvest with
machinery. Spraying of chemical is done by airplanes. California
exports rice to other nations. Maybe Saki's problem is limited to a
small farm; there is still the issue of collateral damage to adjacent
fields from the thrust air flow, poor stopping, operator training, and
the bugs are so bad as to erode a prop blade.
Post by Barry Palmer
Post by Buy_Sell
Now, if you really wanted it easy and had a good solid pathway and a
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/hamodel.htm
-----------------------
Post by Buy_Sell
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying
the crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.
Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice
field with as little effort as possible.
Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with
much larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to
something manageable by one person and make several trips along a
mapped out trail. The carts would provide minimal damage to the soil
and no risk of petroleum contamination. There are several of these
designs around but custom building a cart for a particular environment
would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf
-----------------
Post by shaki
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After that,
the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the rice
field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about 1-2 ft
high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In one hectare
I found the following web site, but it doesn't make me too happy.
Apparently one needs a 200 hp engine to carry a payload of 1 ton!
http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm
shaki
Post by shaki
you talk about 4 metric tons
easily. Transport by cars and/or boats over
Post by shaki
the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a hovercraft? What is
your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
We are talking about soil which has a problem with bearing load. The
large diameter narrow wheels are used to keep crop destruction down by
minimizing the surface area needed to haul a load. An air cushion just
might handle such a load, and indeed, a system designed for low speeds
could work.
Mud requires lots of force to traverse with a wheel, not available from
humans, but power should be minimal due to the low speed. Churning up
the mud and spoiling the crop is still a problem.
The Sevtec Explorer that went to Alaska handled both lift and
propulsion on 55 maximum hp, 22hp for lift. All up weight was 2500lb
or so. If designed for an agricultural, rather than vehicular use,
such a device could easily handle an all up weight of the order of 300
lb per horsepower, (7hp per metric ton) using low bearing pressure
(than normally used on an air cushion) , that might not interfere with
the crop at all. Control would be via a pair of independently
throttled thrusters, and possibly a "cookie or pizza cutter" assembly
bearing on the ground for greater accuracy for such as fertilizing and
pesticide application, and minimization of ground disturbance.
Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
shaki
2006-10-24 08:30:23 UTC
Permalink
One of the problems is scale, I see the crews moving semi-trailer loads of
harvested rice out of the field every 20 minutes or so, all day and all
night. It has been going on for about 4 weeks and they're not finished in
the 23 mile stretch I drive daily from home to office. That is a lot of
tonnage to move, and fuel economy would be important. A fueled vehicle is
not an issue, they plow, plant, and harvest with machinery. Spraying of
chemical is done by airplanes. California exports rice to other nations.
Maybe Saki's problem is limited to a small farm;
Yes, we're talking about separate farms of only about 3-4 ha of size.
there is still the issue
of collateral damage to adjacent fields from the thrust air flow,
How much (horizontal) clearance would be needed between the hover and the
neighbouring rice field, in order not to upset the neighbours?
poor stopping, operator training,
The operating might be limited to only starting/stopping the engine.
Moving could even be done by pulling the hover by hand or with a 9 hp hand
tractor with cage wheels specially designed for muddy paddies.
and the bugs are so bad as to erode a prop blade.
They do?

shaki
Post by Barry Palmer
Post by Buy_Sell
Now, if you really wanted it easy and had a good solid pathway and a
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/hamodel.htm
-----------------------
Post by Buy_Sell
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying
the crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.
Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice
field with as little effort as possible.
Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with
much larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to
something manageable by one person and make several trips along a
mapped out trail. The carts would provide minimal damage to the soil
and no risk of petroleum contamination. There are several of these
designs around but custom building a cart for a particular environment
would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf
-----------------
Post by shaki
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After
that, the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the
rice field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields,
about 1-2 ft high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be
threshed. In one hectare
I found the following web site, but it doesn't make me too happy.
Apparently one needs a 200 hp engine to carry a payload of 1 ton!
http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm
shaki
Post by shaki
you talk about 4 metric tons
easily. Transport by cars and/or boats over
Post by shaki
the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a hovercraft? What
is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
We are talking about soil which has a problem with bearing load. The
large diameter narrow wheels are used to keep crop destruction down by
minimizing the surface area needed to haul a load. An air cushion just
might handle such a load, and indeed, a system designed for low speeds
could work.
Mud requires lots of force to traverse with a wheel, not available from
humans, but power should be minimal due to the low speed. Churning up
the mud and spoiling the crop is still a problem.
The Sevtec Explorer that went to Alaska handled both lift and propulsion
on 55 maximum hp, 22hp for lift. All up weight was 2500lb or so. If
designed for an agricultural, rather than vehicular use, such a device
could easily handle an all up weight of the order of 300 lb per
horsepower, (7hp per metric ton) using low bearing pressure (than
normally used on an air cushion) , that might not interfere with the crop
at all. Control would be via a pair of independently throttled
thrusters, and possibly a "cookie or pizza cutter" assembly bearing on
the ground for greater accuracy for such as fertilizing and pesticide
application, and minimization of ground disturbance.
Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
Ken Roberts
2006-10-24 12:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by shaki
One of the problems is scale, I see the crews moving semi-trailer loads of
harvested rice out of the field every 20 minutes or so, all day and all
night. It has been going on for about 4 weeks and they're not finished in
the 23 mile stretch I drive daily from home to office. That is a lot of
tonnage to move, and fuel economy would be important. A fueled vehicle is
not an issue, they plow, plant, and harvest with machinery. Spraying of
chemical is done by airplanes. California exports rice to other nations.
Maybe Saki's problem is limited to a small farm;
Yes, we're talking about separate farms of only about 3-4 ha of size.
there is still the issue
of collateral damage to adjacent fields from the thrust air flow,
How much (horizontal) clearance would be needed between the hover and the
neighbouring rice field, in order not to upset the neighbours?
poor stopping, operator training,
The operating might be limited to only starting/stopping the engine.
Moving could even be done by pulling the hover by hand or with a 9 hp hand
tractor with cage wheels specially designed for muddy paddies.
and the bugs are so bad as to erode a prop blade.
They do?
shaki
Post by Barry Palmer
Post by Buy_Sell
Now, if you really wanted it easy and had a good solid pathway and a
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/hamodel.htm
-----------------------
Post by Buy_Sell
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying
the crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.
Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice
field with as little effort as possible.
Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with
much larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to
something manageable by one person and make several trips along a
mapped out trail. The carts would provide minimal damage to the soil
and no risk of petroleum contamination. There are several of these
designs around but custom building a cart for a particular environment
would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf
-----------------
Post by shaki
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After
that, the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the
rice field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields,
about 1-2 ft high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be
threshed. In one hectare
I found the following web site, but it doesn't make me too happy.
Apparently one needs a 200 hp engine to carry a payload of 1 ton!
http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm
shaki
Post by shaki
you talk about 4 metric tons
easily. Transport by cars and/or boats over
Post by shaki
the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a hovercraft? What
is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
We are talking about soil which has a problem with bearing load. The
large diameter narrow wheels are used to keep crop destruction down by
minimizing the surface area needed to haul a load. An air cushion just
might handle such a load, and indeed, a system designed for low speeds
could work.
Mud requires lots of force to traverse with a wheel, not available from
humans, but power should be minimal due to the low speed. Churning up
the mud and spoiling the crop is still a problem.
The Sevtec Explorer that went to Alaska handled both lift and propulsion
on 55 maximum hp, 22hp for lift. All up weight was 2500lb or so. If
designed for an agricultural, rather than vehicular use, such a device
could easily handle an all up weight of the order of 300 lb per
horsepower, (7hp per metric ton) using low bearing pressure (than
normally used on an air cushion) , that might not interfere with the crop
at all. Control would be via a pair of independently throttled
thrusters, and possibly a "cookie or pizza cutter" assembly bearing on
the ground for greater accuracy for such as fertilizing and pesticide
application, and minimization of ground disturbance.
Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
That 7 hp per ton figure is probably for lift only. The lift would
probably not disturb neighboring fields at all, even if you are close
enough to brush the hovercraft skirt on one side and the rice on the
other as you walk past. The real issue is thrust. You'll need enough
thrust to power up any slope you have to go up, or at least enough to
control descent on slopes you only need to go down.

If I'm not mistaken, the force for holding your own on a 7% grade would
be .07* the total mass of your hovercraft and its payload. If you're
talking about 6 (metric) tons of rice and a hovercraft that can pick it
up, you'd want about .42 tons of thrust, which for us Americans is
about 925 lbs. That's a whole lot of thrust, which will take a
significant engine (maybe a small car engine) with a good prop set up
for static thrust. That breeze will scare the birds off.
Ken Roberts
2006-10-24 13:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Roberts
That 7 hp per ton figure is probably for lift only. The lift would
probably not disturb neighboring fields at all, even if you are close
enough to brush the hovercraft skirt on one side and the rice on the
other as you walk past. The real issue is thrust. You'll need enough
thrust to power up any slope you have to go up, or at least enough to
control descent on slopes you only need to go down.
If I'm not mistaken, the force for holding your own on a 7% grade would
be .07* the total mass of your hovercraft and its payload. If you're
talking about 6 (metric) tons of rice and a hovercraft that can pick it
up, you'd want about .42 tons of thrust, which for us Americans is
about 925 lbs. That's a whole lot of thrust, which will take a
significant engine (maybe a small car engine) with a good prop set up
for static thrust. That breeze will scare the birds off.
Hey wait. Those numbers were for the payload only. Add a hovercraft
onto that. And that's the hold-in-place force. Climbing would require
more, and you have to take into account time for maneuver. If you have
2 fields separated by a dike of sorts, you would have a hard time
keeping the hovercraft on the dike probably.



Sorry for the mixup.
shaki
2006-10-24 23:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Hey wait. Those numbers were for the payload only. Add a hovercraft onto
that. And that's the hold-in-place force. Climbing would require more,
and you have to take into account time for maneuver. If you have 2 fields
separated by a dike of sorts, you would have a hard time keeping the
hovercraft on the dike probably.
The only levees for a loaded hovercraft to be taken are about 1/2 - 1 ft
high, 1/2 ft wide.

shaki
Sorry for the mixup.
shaki
2006-10-24 22:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Roberts
That 7 hp per ton figure is probably for lift only. The lift would
probably not disturb neighboring fields at all, even if you are close
enough to brush the hovercraft skirt on one side and the rice on the other
as you walk past.
Neat :)
Post by Ken Roberts
The real issue is thrust. You'll need enough thrust to
power up any slope you have to go up, or at least enough to control
descent on slopes you only need to go down.
The rice fields I'm talking about aren't 'slopy' at all. Only issue could
be to get the hover in and out the field, as there is some difference in
level.

Thanks for your comments,
shaki
Post by Ken Roberts
If I'm not mistaken, the force for holding your own on a 7% grade would be
.07* the total mass of your hovercraft and its payload. If you're talking
about 6 (metric) tons of rice and a hovercraft that can pick it up, you'd
want about .42 tons of thrust, which for us Americans is about 925 lbs.
That's a whole lot of thrust, which will take a significant engine (maybe
a small car engine) with a good prop set up for static thrust. That
breeze will scare the birds off.
shaki
2006-10-24 07:45:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Palmer
Post by Buy_Sell
Now, if you really wanted it easy and had a good solid pathway and a
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/hamodel.htm
-----------------------
Post by Buy_Sell
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying
the crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.
Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice
field with as little effort as possible.
Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with
much larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to
something manageable by one person and make several trips along a
mapped out trail. The carts would provide minimal damage to the soil
and no risk of petroleum contamination. There are several of these
designs around but custom building a cart for a particular environment
would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf
-----------------
Post by shaki
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field.
After that, the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles
through the rice field, over the small dikes (between unleveled
rice fields, about 1-2 ft high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it
will be threshed. In one hectare
I found the following web site, but it doesn't make me too happy.
Apparently one needs a 200 hp engine to carry a payload of 1 ton!
http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm
shaki
Post by shaki
you talk about 4 metric tons
easily. Transport by cars and/or boats over
Post by shaki
the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a hovercraft?
What is your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
We are talking about soil which has a problem with bearing load. The
large diameter narrow wheels are used to keep crop destruction down by
minimizing the surface area needed to haul a load. An air cushion just
might handle such a load, and indeed, a system designed for low speeds
could work.
Mud requires lots of force to traverse with a wheel, not available from
humans, but power should be minimal due to the low speed. Churning up the
mud and spoiling the crop is still a problem.
The Sevtec Explorer that went to Alaska handled both lift and propulsion
on 55 maximum hp, 22hp for lift. All up weight was 2500lb or so. If
designed for an agricultural, rather than vehicular use, such a device
could easily handle an all up weight of the order of 300 lb per
horsepower, (7hp per metric ton) using low bearing pressure (than normally
used on an air cushion) , that might not interfere with the crop at all.
OK. That 7 hp/ton is a nice figure and would be financially manageable, I
guess. Interference with the crop is not such a big issue, as it is
already being harvested. Would the remaining the chunks of rice plants and
negotiating the levees between the rice fields interfere with the
low-power design?
Post by Barry Palmer
Control would be via a pair of independently throttled thrusters, and
possibly a "cookie or pizza cutter" assembly bearing on the ground for
greater accuracy for such as fertilizing and pesticide application, and
minimization of ground disturbance.
Fertiliser and pesticide are applied manually, no reason to change that in
the near future (4 years or so).

Thanks,
shaki
Post by Barry Palmer
Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
shaki
2006-10-24 07:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buy_Sell
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying the
crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.
Well, there is all kinds of motorised activity going on on the rice
fields, so fuel really isn't a problem.
Post by Buy_Sell
Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice field
with as little effort as possible.
Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
Only here we are talking about 6 metric tons per ha rice field to be
moved, over a soil which in the rainy season consists of 1/2 meter of mud.
Walking in a rice field in that circumstance easily gets you until your
knees in the mud.
Post by Buy_Sell
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with much
larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to something
manageable by one person and make several trips along a mapped out trail.
No need to make it manageable by 1 person alone as fuel is not an issue.
Only the wheels should not sink in the mud, and the ones you propose
definitely would...

Shaki
Post by Buy_Sell
The carts would provide minimal damage to the soil and no risk of
petroleum contamination. There are several of these designs around but
custom building a cart for a particular environment would be best.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,44639&p=47896
http://www.vintageprojects.com/home-garden/garden-cart.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/farm-construction/HayCart.pdf
-----------------
Post by shaki
Post by shaki
In rice harvesting, the rice is first cut by the cutters. Then the
bundlers come to make bundles of it and put them in the field. After
that, the workers carry those (often quite heavy) bundles through the
rice field, over the small dikes (between unleveled rice fields, about
1-2 ft high, 1 foot wide) to the place where it will be threshed. In
one hectare
I found the following web site, but it doesn't make me too happy.
Apparently one needs a 200 hp engine to carry a payload of 1 ton!
http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm
shaki
Post by shaki
you talk about 4 metric tons
easily. Transport by cars and/or boats over
Post by shaki
the rice fields is undoable, so I thought, maybe a hovercraft? What is
your opinion, would that be a giant investment? How much?
Thanks for any rough estimate!
shakiro
kach22i
2006-10-24 17:12:26 UTC
Permalink
You might also want to reference the work done by hovercraft over
cranberry bogs.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cranberry+bogs+hovercraft&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&start=10&sa=N

Search away.
Buy_Sell
2006-10-24 18:47:53 UTC
Permalink
I'm starting to see the problem more clearly now.
I didn't realize that the mud was that deep.
Perhaps a hovercraft would be the best tool for the job.

If you are trying to move 6 metric tons per hectare (2204.6 lbs X 6 =
13227.6 lbs per hectare.), a lightweight Sevtec Vanguard hovercraft
could easily support 300 lb payload per trip X 44 trips per hectare.
If you could push it to 500 lb payload then that would only be 26.5
trips. That doesn't seem unreasonable. Of course the more payload that
you can handle the fewer trips that you would have to make.

The idea of using a very lightweight hovercraft will be much more
appreciated when it gets stuck for whatever reason. The Sevtec
Vanguard is extremely fuel efficient and weighs in at less than 400
lbs. If it gets stuck in the mud for any reason, it should be easily
man handled with a few people. If you were to use a much larger
hovercraft to try and take on a bigger load and it got stuck, then it
would be a nightmare to try to recover. Keep things lightweight and
fuel efficient.

http://members.aol.com/sevtec/sev/VANG.html

------------------
Post by shaki
Post by Buy_Sell
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying the
crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.
Well, there is all kinds of motorised activity going on on the rice
fields, so fuel really isn't a problem.
Post by Buy_Sell
Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice field
with as little effort as possible.
Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
Only here we are talking about 6 metric tons per ha rice field to be
moved, over a soil which in the rainy season consists of 1/2 meter of mud.
Walking in a rice field in that circumstance easily gets you until your
knees in the mud.
Post by Buy_Sell
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with much
larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to something
manageable by one person and make several trips along a mapped out trail.
No need to make it manageable by 1 person alone as fuel is not an issue.
Only the wheels should not sink in the mud, and the ones you propose
definitely would...
Shaki
Barry Palmer
2006-10-25 00:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buy_Sell
I'm starting to see the problem more clearly now.
I didn't realize that the mud was that deep.
Perhaps a hovercraft would be the best tool for the job.
If you are trying to move 6 metric tons per hectare (2204.6 lbs X 6 =
13227.6 lbs per hectare.), a lightweight Sevtec Vanguard hovercraft
could easily support 300 lb payload per trip X 44 trips per hectare.
If you could push it to 500 lb payload then that would only be 26.5
trips. That doesn't seem unreasonable. Of course the more payload that
you can handle the fewer trips that you would have to make.
The idea of using a very lightweight hovercraft will be much more
appreciated when it gets stuck for whatever reason. The Sevtec
Vanguard is extremely fuel efficient and weighs in at less than 400
lbs. If it gets stuck in the mud for any reason, it should be easily
man handled with a few people. If you were to use a much larger
hovercraft to try and take on a bigger load and it got stuck, then it
would be a nightmare to try to recover. Keep things lightweight and
fuel efficient.
http://members.aol.com/sevtec/sev/VANG.html
------------------
Post by shaki
Post by Buy_Sell
If this were my problem, I wouldn't use anything motorized in my rice
field for fear of petroleum contamination and potentially destroying the
crop permanently. I would solve this problem in a different way.
Well, there is all kinds of motorised activity going on on the rice
fields, so fuel really isn't a problem.
Post by Buy_Sell
Problem: How to move the weight of the heavy bundles off of the rice field
with as little effort as possible.
Solution: Minimize the footprint damage on the soil by utilizing
plantation carts with narrow, very large diameter wheels. I can
effortlessly move 400 lbs of firewood around my property with the cart
Only here we are talking about 6 metric tons per ha rice field to be
moved, over a soil which in the rainy season consists of 1/2 meter of mud.
Walking in a rice field in that circumstance easily gets you until your
knees in the mud.
Post by Buy_Sell
that Lee Valley sells. If I had this task, I would build carts with much
larger diameter wheels but restrict the loading capacity to something
manageable by one person and make several trips along a mapped out trail.
No need to make it manageable by 1 person alone as fuel is not an issue.
Only the wheels should not sink in the mud, and the ones you propose
definitely would...
Shaki
The Sevtec Vanguard is a vehicle. A piece of hover farm machinery
could lift far more than a Vanguard on the same power.

Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
kach22i
2006-10-31 16:55:05 UTC
Permalink
I'm sure Barry can design something wonderful for this application.

I found this the other day by Vanair/Canair:
http://www.vanairhovercraft.com/hoverbarge.htm

There are other hoverbarges/trailers.

Sample:
http://www.hovertrans.com/
Post by Barry Palmer
The Sevtec Vanguard is a vehicle. A piece of hover farm machinery
could lift far more than a Vanguard on the same power.
Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
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