Discussion:
using something other than a tiny tach on a vanguard????????
(too old to reply)
e***@netscape.net
20 years ago
Permalink
Hello
Has anyone used a tach other than a tiny tach on a 20 hp briggs and
stratton engine.I"m looking for a less expensive alternative if it can
be done .
Thanks ED
r***@pdq.net
20 years ago
Permalink
Long ago, I bought a harmonic tach for about 20 dollars. It has been
very useful. It does not give real time data but it always gives
accurate steady state numbers, which is about all one needs for design
work and testing.
D***@students.wisc.edu
20 years ago
Permalink
I don't care so much about the price, I just hate a digital read-out...

Dan
Ken Roberts
20 years ago
Permalink
Dan,

I can vouch for the digital readout problem, but have no really good solution.
I hate digital readouts. If you find something that works fairly well for these
engines, let me know!
Post by D***@students.wisc.edu
I don't care so much about the price, I just hate a digital read-out...
Dan
e***@netscape.net
20 years ago
Permalink
Thanks for the input . ED
Wes
20 years ago
Permalink
Has anyone tried salvaging a tach off of a motorcycle with the same
number of cylinders as the engine they are using?

-Wes
Post by Ken Roberts
Dan,
I can vouch for the digital readout problem, but have no really good solution.
I hate digital readouts. If you find something that works fairly well for these
engines, let me know!
Dave Schneider
20 years ago
Permalink
We have talked about this before. As I recall, the catch is that many of
these 4-strokes fire on every revolution (i.e. also exhaust stroke). I
don't recall what the Kohler does.

I too would like an anolog tach so if you find one, let me know. The last
time I looked I couldn't find anything, or they were too expensive.
Post by Wes
Has anyone tried salvaging a tach off of a motorcycle with the same
number of cylinders as the engine they are using?
-Wes
Post by Ken Roberts
Dan,
I can vouch for the digital readout problem, but have no really good solution.
I hate digital readouts. If you find something that works fairly well for these
engines, let me know!
D***@students.wisc.edu
20 years ago
Permalink
Would this converter do the trick for a motorcycle tach?

http://www.jpcycles.com/productgroup.aspx?GID=BDCE5797-2FDD-4DE0-8633-AB815F19A995&search=tachometer&store=All&page=2

Dan
Post by Dave Schneider
We have talked about this before. As I recall, the catch is that many of
these 4-strokes fire on every revolution (i.e. also exhaust stroke).
I
Post by Dave Schneider
don't recall what the Kohler does.
I too would like an anolog tach so if you find one, let me know.
The last
Post by Dave Schneider
time I looked I couldn't find anything, or they were too expensive.
Ken Roberts
20 years ago
Permalink
I think the Kohler engines are supposed to have a genuine ignition system--one
fire per compression stroke.
...
D***@students.wisc.edu
20 years ago
Permalink
I have an 18 hp Vanguard. I really don't have a clue about the
ignition system and I haven't even run it yet. With all the wires and
rectifiers and everything I would expect that it only fires once per
cycle, too. I'm going to get the shop manual for it one of these days.

A lot of this engine stuff is foreign to me, and I'm trying to work
through it with theoretical knowledge--I don't think I know enough to
tinker with the motorcycle tach and/or converter with any success
unless I called the motorcycle people.

Also, if anyone is interested in that converter, I did a google search
and found some cheaper vendors...

Dan
s***@aol.com
20 years ago
Permalink
...
s***@aol.com
20 years ago
Permalink
The Vanguard 18 fires on every revolution. Remember, the "Tiny Tach"
is used on only one cylinder, so use on one or two cylinder engines is
the same.

Analogue tachs, well, for lack of a better description, are purchased
for decoration of vehicles, except for competition vehicles. Few
people really use them, especially in this era of 99% plus automatic
transmissions. My personal experience is that these decorative items
are not sufficiently accurate for use. For instance, if your surface
skimmer is set up to run at 3600rpm, and you want to make a power
setting of 80% power, the rpm will change to 3344rpm a small difference
for some inaccurate tachs.

Most important use of the tach is when one unfamiliar with the craft
has pulled power well back to slow down for a turn, and wishes to know
where the power is during that turn, as reflected from past experiences
with the craft and the same power setting. I have gone without a tach
on some smaller craft, however, and driven just by feel. A tach is
vital for research and design, for instance, for performance comparison
of individual rotor and drive configurations.

Barry Palmer, for Sevtec

There have been digital tachs with decorative faces that worked well,
and I once purchased 4 of them, one worked, the others, I got units
with incomplete innards that were just stuck in a box and shipped!

The tiny tach either does not work or works accurately. If it does not
work, fiddling with the pickup wire will usually make it work.

Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
Ken Roberts
20 years ago
Permalink
Several points here, Barry:

First, Tiny Tach makes several different models, but as you said it only pays
attention to one cylinder. However, if I'm not mistaken they make models for
engines which fire twice per revolution, once per revolution and once every
other revolution. They also have some sort of provision for a three-cylinder
which has some sort of odd timing issue.

My biggest argument here though is about analog tachs. IMHO, an analog gauge
is far more useful to a human during normal operations than a digital gauge.
"Right next to the red" is more useful and more intuitively understood than
3573, since you have to remember what the max is, then compare that number to
what you see moving around on your tiny tach. This is even more of a problem if
you have two tiny tachs, one which redlines at 3600 and one that redlines at
6800. This might be a slight inconvenience when you're going 30 mph going down
a river, but in the middle of a race or when you're cruising at 60+ mph it can
be a real pain.

You have a point about accuracy with analog gauges though, and you may remember
my earlier queries about digital sensors with an analog gauge. Some cars use
them, the computer makes a reading from the sensor, then moves the gauge. I've
seen the calibration process on a BMW, all the gauges sweep slowly left to
right, all at the same angle and in sync.

In all reality, for most systems an analog gauge can be every bit as accurate as
a digital one. Especially since even the digital gauge relies on an analog
sensor in most cases. RPM is one of the few things that can be measured
directly by counting something. Human interfacing is an often neglected but
critically important part of design. A prime example is probably just on the
right edge of the window you're reading this message in. It would be more
accurate to have a digital readout of what line you're on at the top of the
window and what line on the bottom, and a small text box to type in which line
you want to scroll to, but instead they have a little bar with a slide on it,
and you drag it with your mouse. I'm not sure if that idea came from Apple or
Xerox Park, but lots of people can't do business without it and few people think
of how much trouble it saved them.
...
Sonerai
20 years ago
Permalink
The cycle engines have parallel cyclinders so pistons are at the end of a
stroke when both plugs fire and one cyclinder is just at a dead point. With
the V configuration of the industrial engine I think the firing would have
to be independent. If you Google on "tachometer circuit" you can find some
simple circuits that could be adjusted for any firing scheme your engine
has. I even found an optical sensor that could trigger on prop blades
rather than engine ignition.
Randy
...
Ken Roberts
20 years ago
Permalink
Randy,

That optical tach can be found at any RC hobby store, though they may have to
order it. Most of them have two or three blade settings, so those of you who
use more on thrust would have an issue.

I was going to pick one of those up for a while, but haven't gotten around to
it. It tells you what your prop is doing, but not what your engine is doing.
If your belt slips, for example, you would get a false reading on your engine
even if you know the conversion ratio for your reduction.
...
Sonerai
20 years ago
Permalink
Ken,

It's not the hobby store optical tach. It is an amplified photo transistor
which makes pulses for driving either a frequency counter for digital read
or for summing by a standard automotive tach. A homebuilt setup either way
that can be set up for any engine. You can read a white or dark spot on
your engine pulley or flywheel for engine speed.

Here are some links:
http://www.wavefront.mcmail.com/tacho.htm
http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/CheapTricks/Tachometer/index.shtml
Randy
...
With
...
Ken Roberts
20 years ago
Permalink
Randy,

Thanks for the links. I don't have time right now but will take a look.
...
Troels Larsen
20 years ago
Permalink
I know I'm sort of late starting on this topic... but..

How about using a "generic" diesel engine tach?
The ones I've found work on the frequency of the AC generator (if you've got
one) from the engine.
And on top, most generic types have a screw for adjusting the rpm's

This is what I think I'll be using, abt $30 a piece, and analogue (yay)

If I can just get the needle to move, I'll calibrate it myself with a
handheld tach

/Troels
Post by e***@netscape.net
Hello
Has anyone used a tach other than a tiny tach on a 20 hp briggs and
stratton engine.I"m looking for a less expensive alternative if it can
be done .
Thanks ED
s***@aol.com
20 years ago
Permalink
The Vanguard engine fires each cylinder on every rotation, so a tiny
tach, which is hooked up to a single cylinder, works for single or vee
twin engines.

Analog tachs are, well, for lack of a better term, are purchased for
decoration in autos, especially in this era of automatic transmissions.
I have yet to get one that works as well as the Tiny Tach, which
either works well or not at all, until you fiddle with its pickup, and
make sure the pickup is well clear of other talkative wires.

I once purchased a digital tach that looked like an analog tach from an
auto parts store. It worked beautifully, so I purchased 4 more, only
to find that some of the innards of the additional tachs were missing,
and the company was out of business. I have not pursued this further,
but there may be some company producing digital tachs that look like
something instead of basic ugly, like theTinyTach.

A tach is vital when doing research work on a craft, and is especially
useful when starting to operate a new homebuilt craft, and is
recommended. It would be nice to get one that would display the hours
and rpm, which is a determiner of fuel burn, while the craft operates,
when one goes on long trips.

Also, when backing off power for turns, it is useful for the beginning
operator to know how far the power can be pulled back before reducing
cushion power before a turn.

We should search the internet for a substitute tach.

Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
Ken Roberts
20 years ago
Permalink
...
Barry,

You make really good points here. Most analog gauges are just what you
describe. It takes real cash and lots of it to get an accurate gauge for some
things, analog or digital.

As well, for people such as yourself who are designing things with engines on
them, it's critical to get accurate information. It's also fairly important for
those who work on these engines, or mess with parts in the drive train.

My main issue with digital equipment is the lack of intuitive displays. My main
issue with analog gauges, aside of lack of accuracy is the lack of precision. I
suppose they go hand in hand and the lack of precision is driven by the lack of
accuracy. Having marks on the gauge when the gauge can't truthfully tell you
within one mark where the real value is is pointless.

It still seems to me, though, that somebody would currently make an accurate
engine metrics suite which has analog displays. As yet, I haven't found it. I
can make an assumption that, if I DO find it, it will cost more than I want to
spend on it.

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